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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri if
the current opinion polls are born out
the liberal Democrats won't be left with
many MPS after the general election if
so the country should pray that one of
them is our first guest he is that rare
thing in the sea of mediocrity a man of
independent mind and in a chamber where
a shiver can sometimes be seen running
along the green benches looking for a
spine to run up he is that rare thing a
man of Courage when the strange death of
Dr David Kelly occurred the worst case
of suicide you'll ever see he didn't
just call it a strange death he wrote a
book about it by the same name he is the
former home office minister of State
Norman Baker MP Norman thanks for
joining us on the Sputnik let's talk uh
briefly about Parliament uh first the
whole world is talking about the CIA
torture report President Obama tried
very hard to stop it coming out the
British government appeared to have been
busy trying to make sure that all
references to our complicity in the
matter uh was
removed what is it about the era of Tony
Blair George Bush that still haunts the
current crop of leaders oh there's a lot
I think that haunts them and and haunts
me it haunts me because at that point
parliamentary democracy and democracy in
the US which we thought was Secure the
written Constitution and so on was just
Swept Away uh and all sorts of
procedures and practices were undertaken
which were Beyond democracy and yet the
system seemed incapable of stopping it
and uh it showed me how fragile
democracy was and at the time of course
of uh 2003 we saw just how fragile the
BBC was forced into an apology in the
case of David Kelly forcement apology
for relying on One Source when it turned
out Alis Campbell had one source or was
it no sources for his madeup dossier so
it frightened me that democracy could be
so fragile and we have to find a way of
reinstating uh the backbone of democracy
in our society now you've written to the
government of which you were very
recently quite an important member
demanding the publication of the chil
inquiry report all these years all these
millions of pounds hundreds hundreds of
hours of testimony paperwork a million
documents when are we going to see it
well I've written to John choot actually
but I mean John chot you you insist the
government is not in control in any way
of the the timing of this well I think
there obviously discussions going on
between John chart and say the cabinet
secretary and no doubt the Prime
Minister and others are have got a view
on these matters but I'm quite clear
this is this is now this is now becoming
history this is 2003 this is a long time
ago and it's absurd that after so many
years we can't see this and I think the
British people are entitled to see this
report before the general election to
inform them as to how they're going to
vote and having it come out after the
election is an insult to the bertish
people it is an outrage that the media
is by and large quiet about as I said in
the introduction you wrote a book about
the strange death of Dr David Kelly you
still think it's just as strange of
course I do and leaving aside what
people think happened to David Kelly
let's start with the basic facts the man
was F dead in mysterious circumstances
an inquest was begun by the oxer coroner
the inquest was then pulled by the labor
government at the time by the by the
politicians and there has been no
inquest into that man's death now I
challenge anyone to defend the situation
where someone dies in mysterious
circumstances and there is no inquest
into that man's death how can that
possibly be right and whatever people
think happened to him even if they think
it was suicide it cannot be right there
should be no inquest why aren't the
journalists in this country theym
demanding an inquest the man in question
was at the center of the Iraq Story I
mean you talked about uh concert a storm
David Kelly was in the eye of the storm
uh and then days later he's found dead
in the most mysterious circumstances
what was most mysterious about them well
if you listen to the doctors and medical
experts who look at this very carefully
uh they believe it's impossible for him
to have died in in the way that was
described uh medically impossible uh one
person only died in 2003 from severing
the alter Al artery which is a tiny
artery Matic thickness in your wrist um
presuming that one person was David
Kelly but beyond that of course a Hutton
inquiry which was it's a joke frankly
was set up to look into the
circumstances of course spent no time at
all on that and inp did spend time on
David Kelly's death here was
contradictory key Witnesses were not
called uh including the people who in
charge the inquiry for the police his
best friend my pedison and so on were
not called instead the whole Hutton
inquiry was diverted onto the BBC and
whether or not the BBC had behaved
properly it's an outrage that the whole
hon inquiry was not about the government
and about the death of one individual
who did his best for his country but
about the BBC and the media the rest of
media went alone with it now that you're
back on the back benches you going to
pick this story up again well it's still
there George and you know I'll wait for
I think the next stage will have to be
there's so much evidence out there that
that questions are the official version
but no one's interested very much in the
mainstream media in that so we'll have
to wait I think for one of the key
players to come forward before the media
then rediscovers the story I can't spell
my whole life on on one story there's
other things to do in Parliament you say
the mainstream media but when we
announce you're coming on the Sputnik
everybody immediately responded
regarding the strange death of Dr David
Kell well the public L of course are are
are concerned as I am about the official
version they they know the there's
something not quite right about that but
that's not you know the the the powers
that be want to shut this down not all
MPS of course I mean MPS will talk to me
privately and say well actually we got
our concerns too senior MPS but they
don't want to say anything publicly it's
too difficult to rock the boat so many
politicians and you know this George
because you're one of them um there's a
circle of of of activity and there's a
safe segment people operate in the safe
segment and if you want to go outside
that safe segment as I do and you do uh
then people don't like it now how does
it feel to be back on the back benches
how did it feel to be in government with
the Tories well I've spent my life
fighting Tories so uh it was a curious
marriage but you know the funny thing
about the Tories is because they are
business orientated they could see as a
contract you they want to buy some
double glazing we are selling double
glazing and they want to get double
glazing have to get it from us and they
sign a contract and by and large because
of business people they stick to the
contract so it kind of worked in a
fashion I know I would say that in many
ways work quite well at the Department
of Transport where I was for three and a
half years he was quite Collegiate there
weren't many policy differences we both
wanted to expand the railways and so on
so that was a very productive time I got
a lot done at the Department of
Transport I'm very proud of my stuff
Department of Transport but then you
went into the belly of the Beast
the you you were working under Theresa
May herself a putative Prime ministerial
uh candidate how' you go on with her
well I got on better than the media
would have you believe as a matter of
fact I mean on the personal level I got
nothing against the um the the
difficulty was that she didn't seem to
want to accept we had a coalition
government she thought it was a
conservative government with a Liv D to
be tolerated that's not my view on
matters a bit like the thick of it do
you remember that in the thick of it the
how the liberal Democrat or one assumes
they were the liberal Democrat Coalition
partner were treated uh frankly with
contempt by the ministers and the
special advisers to the ministers well I
think it vared across government the
department for transport was very good
and I had good relations with my Tory
colleagues and he with the Tory special
advisor Us in the in the DFT and the
relations with Theresa were on a
personal level quite amicable she sent
me a Christmas card last week um but you
know it she sends out to all the guys
well maybe she does she sent me a
Christmas card last oh well there you
are I'll wipe I'll wipe that from my my
argument no seriously uh we're now in
the runup to the election but not so
close that we can't talk about it I mean
frankly in your constituency a
progressive person would be mad to vote
against you even though there's a labor
candidate there's even a green candidate
any Progressive person should say well
he might be a liberal Democrat but he's
our kind of liberal Democrat he's a real
uh liberal Democrat but not all of your
colleagues are in the same boat
according to the opinion polls you may
be about to lose half your MPS is there
a kind of gallows humor amongst your
ranks about that no I mean I think we we
we know we're facing a difficult
election but that doesn't mean there
Gallows humor or indeed a pessimism
about it I mean I think we're well dug
in in many of our seats and I think
we'll do much better than the Press
expect although the poll indicated that
you're going to do worse in the seats
you hold than you are in the National I
don't believe that GE you I know the
inside where we're going I don't believe
that and the reality is that you know
every single Parliament I've been
involved in and before I was in
Parliament the Press love to write
stories about how the lids are finished
they' written it so many times you know
that you get a repeat fee for these
stories right between every every
election you know when not finished
liberalism doesn't die liberalism is an
idea that cannot die uh because it's
there and the British people so it will
carry on and uh we will do we'll do
better than people expect as we always
do but you got to bear in mind that the
people who are saying that we're
finished who are they they're off on the
rightwing Press who can't bear the fact
that we're in we're in there stopping
the Tories doing what they want to do or
they the far leftwing press who want
labor to have a clear R you know the
Press by and large want to return to a
two- party system they don't want the
greens don't want live dams don't want
SNP they want lab versus Tory that's
what they want well the British people
don't want that because over the years
um you've seen the the combination of
the the percentage of the vote for labor
and Tory declined from I think 98% in 19
it was 98% when I was born down to down
to what 60% or something now you know
these people are fed up with two party
50 something per at and the Press better
to catch up with the public yes but Nick
PL made a fateful decision uh your party
did to climb into the ministerial Monte
goes and keep David Cameron in power the
buling dun boy the tonian Posh boy and a
multi-millionaire government uh The
Pledge on student fees and so on is
going to hurt you very badly well look
at a few things about that first of all
there's no military monteo I refuse to
have a ministerial car uh and had a big
argument with' already accepted that
you're a different I got a h up his bike
just for the record a bicycle um but
look I mean if we had not g into
arithmetic at the last election said you
can have a tour minority government or
you can have a t libd Coalition that's
what the arithmetic said there wasn't
there wasn't another option on the table
and we thought if we let the Tes have a
minority government they'll run to the
country in six months time and get a
majority that's what happens in these
situations happened in 74 with Harold
Wilson uh and if we go in with the co if
we don't go with the Coalition people
would say you wanted the balance a power
for 50 years you've been given it you're
doing nothing with it so we had a very
difficult choice we made the right
choice I think both for the country and
for us it was a difficult choice and it
wasn't an easy choice to make out the
two options but in terms of the
manifesto we've delivered 75% of our
Manifesto in government uh I'm very
pleased about that okay we didn't
deliver tuation fees and that was a a
very painful thing for me and for number
of our colleagues but you know the
reality was when it came to negotiations
with the Tories and labor after the next
election both Tories and labor said we
want tuition fees up both the other
parties are going to increase tuition
fees so there's nobody to negotiate with
that on that issue if it happens again I
hope you make a difference Choice Norman
Baker thanks very much thanks for being
on the interview coming up after the
break cash strap Britain has found a
hidden stash last week at least we must
assume so because permanent new military
bases in the Persian Gulf don't come
cheap we'll be right
back welcome back Britain withdrew east
of Suz back in
1971 but just when you thought our
economy couldn't get much worse we've
pulled a rabbit out of the hat and
announced we are to build a new
permanent military base in the Persian
Gulf and not just anywhere in Bahrain
Bahrain is in the grip of a revolution
it has an absolute Royal dictatorship
which murders and tortures democracy
campaigners and then incarcerates
doctors who treat those campaigners and
if that weren't bad enough Bahrain is
also occupied by invitation by its even
more brutal dictatorship of a neighbor
Saudi Arabia on board the Sputnik with
us to discuss what all this means is
Charles schuri a man who knows what he's
talking about a former Army officer
intelligence man and security expert
Charles what has bahin got that Britain
would want to build a military base
there bahin has many things of course
that Britain has got one of which is
money for sure and the other is uh
geographical location which is uh at
least a justification from a
geopolitical perspective it's um of
course something is the clue in the word
Persian Gulf the clue is in the word
Persian Gulf um in terms of uh for
example it's importance with respect to
oil imports with respect to uh the
movement of free trade and shipping and
of course also uh it's an opportunity
for Britain to show uh that it's a very
close Ally of course of the United
States who has a very significant
presence already in Bahrain their fifth
Fleet is already birth there exactly uh
I I can see that but I thought that we
were shivering through austerity winter
I thought that Britain was Cash strapped
a permanent military base doesn't sound
like a cheap thing to me having said
that I think first of all Bahrain is
paying for this which um at least
they're paying for the capital costs so
they've put they're going to invest
something like 15 million pounds 2324
million in this Britain will then um
take the running costs of this but um
that I think tells us a lot in itself as
to why a country like bahin would want
to actually give a base to a foreign
power um and it's also I think uh a
point that this is actually quite I
think more of a symbolic gesture or of
symbolic importance than it is of any
practical effect I say this for a number
of reasons first of all because 15
million pounds which is being paid by
byrain even though we're going to pay
the operating costs into the future um
it's a lot of money to you and me but in
terms of uh the big picture of Defense
spending defense equipment defense
infrastructure 50 million pounds does
not buy you an awful lot um secondly um
we've already got use of the American
facilities there no doubt we make some
sort of contribution or perhaps as a
quid pro quo they can use our facilities
as we know that happens um and it's also
the case that of course even though we
haven't been based permanently in the
Persian Gulf since the early 70s at
least um we have had quite a a near
permanent Naval presence in terms of
ships patrolling and things like this
and so consequently this this is really
very um I think symbolic and it's very
symbolically important I think both for
Britain and particularly of course for
Bahrain I think this is an attempt if
you like or an opportunity seized by the
bahini uh ruling family because it is a
ruling family a dictatorship by any
other the name it is um an attempt I
think to tie other European powers into
Bahrain it's an attempt to say um if
America were at some future point to
start signaling its withdrawal from the
Persian Gulf I mean let's face it there
are a number of uh factors here first of
all there are uh increasingly
uh let's not put too strong a word on it
but good relations uh or better
relations with Iran uh from America
there's a resolution hopefully of the
nuclear issue uh there is perhaps um
cooperation in the future against Isis
and others so of course this is a matter
of some fear for people like the Saudi
and the bahini ruling families secondly
American dependence on um Arabian oil is
declining declining sharply yeah thirdly
and lastly I would say that America is
increasingly focusing elsewhere in the
Pacific where it sees it main rival
pivot to Asia exactly because of what it
sees as the China threat or rivalry
whatever wants to see and therefore I
think bin is perhaps slightly I wouldn't
put it any stronger than this but
slightly perhaps apprehensive that the
more uh this happens the more direction
of travel is America is away from this
area the more it should go back to its
old friends Britain of course was the
gave the protectorate for many many
years uh was the colonial Master if you
like um and therefore it doesn't hurt
them at all to have Britain uh if you
like with its footprint back in and from
one I said it was symbolically important
but there's a practical issue here as
well which I don't think's been
mentioned elsewhere as far as I've seen
if we have a naval base there a Naval
facility I think base is probably too
strong a word for it um at the moment
with 15 million pounds but if we have a
Naval facility there would that possibly
in the future were there to be disorder
chaos Revolution as some might call it
uh protest would that give Britain an
opportunity to deploy troops there to
protect the base Nally but of course
that would also be very useful and
helpful for uh the ruling family well
you're not old enough to remember but
the last time we were in that region
roaming around the streets quelling
disorder it was in the crater District
in Aiden uh with the bag pipes skirling
and Kilts swaying as we shot down the
natives that symbolically was seen as
the last Act of the British Empire it
was the moment when Harold Wilson
declared we were withdrawing east of su
and indeed it's this is why again as a
symbol it's almost a reversal of that
position no matter that it's not in
financial terms a vast sum of money it
does symbolically tie us in there
because it means then that we're not
just piggybacking on the American
facilities that we do now it means now
that uh that we can send a signal that
says we are for square with the Bahrain
with Bahrain as the foreign secretary
said the other day we are standing
shoulder-to-shoulder with Bahrain what
he really meant of course was that we're
standing shoulder to shoulder with the
Bahraini ruling family because as we
know of course uh if uh this was the
same in Syria let's say the Russian
naval base in s in Syria this has been
roundly criticized by labor and
conservative liberal Democrat all
politicians in the US and the UK and yet
there we are now doing exactly the same
thing in a position which in a situation
which although there's no full-blown
Civil War in Bahrain at the moment
there's still nonetheless an active
protest group there is um uh a uh some
might say an Insurgency a rebel
organization people who actually say
that they want democracy which is
actually very different from much of the
Syrian situation and yet we are saying
we will do exactly what Russia does in
um Syria and something that we have
criticized Russia for for having that
naval base in Syria it sends a very
clear message of two things I think
first of all that we are tying ourselves
to uh these um dictatorships such as bin
Saudi Arabia Qatar and others uh but
also I think it sends a very clear
message on fortunately that Britain at
least in respect of its foreign policy
with regards to this area uh shows quite
a degree of hypocrisy hypocrisy
us it's been heard before for sure this
week in Channel 4 they add this program
on dismantling camb Bastian don't you
think it's a bit ironic as the as
Britain is dismantling its largest
overseas base since the second world war
and now opening this new Naval Base is
that maybe the arithmetic uh that you
that you raised in the beginning it's a
interesting point although um the um uh
that was a very interesting documentary
which luckily I've seen since you've
raised it um that was something over a
billion pounds that cost us and again
that brings into relief what I've just
said about this 15 million as a as a
almost like a symbol only for um our
relationship with Bahrain very
interesting in that program I I would
urge people to try and watch that
program on Channel 4 um if I'm allowed
to put other TV broadcasters as an
advertisement almost because what comes
through clearly again and again perhaps
unintentionally I found on that program
was when they are translating what the
senior Afghan generals are saying and
this is unbeknown to the British
generals or Colonels who are sitting
there the sheer disdain that so many of
the Afghan senior officers seem to have
for their British counterparts um that
came through very uh clearly and
probably quite unintentionally Charles
as we've got you here and you're an
expert in the intelligence field rectile
infusions PR es ice baths standing for
66 hours people dying on the torture
tables all of that turns out to have
been the practice of our closest Ally
the United States and its intelligence
Services the CIA according to the report
this week did any of that shock or
surprise you uh very sadly no it didn't
surprise me at all and the reason I say
that is because it's largely been in the
public domain for some time well over a
decade I mean it's 2004 was the earliest
that I could find that IID mentioned
these practices going on particularly in
respect of the UK's role in suspected
rendition going back to 2004 is when I I
think first mentioned it so if I know
about it and I'm not even involved on
the inside of these uh issues anymore uh
and the guardian and other newspapers
were reporting or at least referring to
it it's been um if you like common
knowledge and that's why I gave a
slightly rice SM when David Cameron the
on the day of the report came out and
said something like that the uh United
States risked losing its moral Authority
through its use of torture and yet
throughout the whole time that that
torture was taking place uh politicians
of all shades in the United Kingdom um
spoke only really of shared values uh
and it turns out that those shared
values as was widely suspected were of
torture and so on and and also let's not
forget there is a long history of
American and sadly British involvement
in torture if only uh not only with
their own Security Forces to varying
degrees um and I wouldn't want to
overemphasize that but also of course in
their um complicity with the torture by
other regimes around the world for
example if we look at countries such as
Saudi Arabia uh and so on torture is
widely practiced in these places and so
um not much is said by the United
Kingdom of the United States uh about
these these practices and so therefore
perhaps it's not surprising that then
they uh use these practices themselves
but of course the fact that the CIA have
been blamed now for lying and
undoubtedly they did lie to their
oversight it it raises two issues for me
it's first of all does it suggest
therefore that what the CIA have told uh
their oversight committees and so on in
respect of their other activities for
example in Syria in Libya were also lies
and maybe this should all be Revisited
and secondly the fact that you've got
the CIA being blamed for lying it's
almost the same as happened in the uh UK
with respect to the reasons for going to
war in 2003 in Iraq that it really does
give an excuse for uh the politicians
the journalists all of whom who didn't
question this torture when it was
happening to say oh but we were deceived
the CIA lied to us what are we supposed
to do not withstanding that really for
over a decade it's been common knowledge
they're all shocked shocked in the way
that the police captain in Casablanca
was when discovering there was gambling
going on at Rick's Cafe thank you very
much indeed Charles
shrid and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling Guri well it
seems that for the public Norman Baker
is syn synonym to the strange death of
Dr David Kelly I got the impression he
doesn't quite like that uh I think he's
a bit worried that he'll be pigeon
holded in that way but nonetheless he
was the man who had the courage to say
what he thought and write a book about
it and people respect him for that so
that's why Muhammad F Mia says I can
openly say without an iota of fear that
Dr David Kelly was murdered by British
and American licenses I also say this
you can kill a man but you can't kill
the truth on the torture report it's
unbelievable but believable as you know
Dick Cheney commented um that it is full
of crap yeah he said he' do it all again
unbelievable but believable LBC responds
one of them is full of and it isn't the
torture report so it must be dick an L
Tweeter says the crap is that any other
regime would be at the IC for crimes
against humanity no chance of that for
Blair and Bush and that's all that we've
got time for this which alas means
that's the end of the show you can keep
in touch with us on Twitter at rtor
Sputnik and on Facebook you can like us
on Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been
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marvelous