1 00:00:02,450 --> 00:00:07,660 [Music] 2 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,960 I 3 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,079 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 4 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:43,480 with me George Galloway and me gri if 5 00:00:41,079 --> 00:00:45,520 the current opinion polls are born out 6 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:48,399 the liberal Democrats won't be left with 7 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,800 many MPS after the general election if 8 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:54,440 so the country should pray that one of 9 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:56,879 them is our first guest he is that rare 10 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,280 thing in the sea of mediocrity a man of 11 00:00:56,879 --> 00:01:01,680 independent mind and in a chamber where 12 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,519 a shiver can sometimes be seen running 13 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:06,520 along the green benches looking for a 14 00:01:03,519 --> 00:01:09,240 spine to run up he is that rare thing a 15 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:11,920 man of Courage when the strange death of 16 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,439 Dr David Kelly occurred the worst case 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,640 of suicide you'll ever see he didn't 18 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:19,439 just call it a strange death he wrote a 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:22,000 book about it by the same name he is the 20 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:24,520 former home office minister of State 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,119 Norman Baker MP Norman thanks for 22 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:31,320 joining us on the Sputnik let's talk uh 23 00:01:27,119 --> 00:01:34,799 briefly about Parliament uh first the 24 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:37,320 whole world is talking about the CIA 25 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:39,399 torture report President Obama tried 26 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:41,159 very hard to stop it coming out the 27 00:01:39,399 --> 00:01:42,920 British government appeared to have been 28 00:01:41,159 --> 00:01:46,240 busy trying to make sure that all 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:48,200 references to our complicity in the 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:53,640 matter uh was 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:57,520 removed what is it about the era of Tony 32 00:01:53,640 --> 00:02:00,119 Blair George Bush that still haunts the 33 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,920 current crop of leaders oh there's a lot 34 00:02:00,119 --> 00:02:04,880 I think that haunts them and and haunts 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,719 me it haunts me because at that point 36 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,560 parliamentary democracy and democracy in 37 00:02:06,719 --> 00:02:10,759 the US which we thought was Secure the 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,239 written Constitution and so on was just 39 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:15,920 Swept Away uh and all sorts of 40 00:02:13,239 --> 00:02:18,400 procedures and practices were undertaken 41 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:20,920 which were Beyond democracy and yet the 42 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,040 system seemed incapable of stopping it 43 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:25,200 and uh it showed me how fragile 44 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,000 democracy was and at the time of course 45 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:31,160 of uh 2003 we saw just how fragile the 46 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,519 BBC was forced into an apology in the 47 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,200 case of David Kelly forcement apology 48 00:02:33,519 --> 00:02:37,680 for relying on One Source when it turned 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:42,000 out Alis Campbell had one source or was 50 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:43,959 it no sources for his madeup dossier so 51 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,959 it frightened me that democracy could be 52 00:02:43,959 --> 00:02:49,120 so fragile and we have to find a way of 53 00:02:46,959 --> 00:02:52,040 reinstating uh the backbone of democracy 54 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,239 in our society now you've written to the 55 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,680 government of which you were very 56 00:02:54,239 --> 00:03:00,480 recently quite an important member 57 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:03,840 demanding the publication of the chil 58 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:06,959 inquiry report all these years all these 59 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:09,840 millions of pounds hundreds hundreds of 60 00:03:06,959 --> 00:03:12,239 hours of testimony paperwork a million 61 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,200 documents when are we going to see it 62 00:03:12,239 --> 00:03:16,879 well I've written to John choot actually 63 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,879 but I mean John chot you you insist the 64 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:21,120 government is not in control in any way 65 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:22,360 of the the timing of this well I think 66 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,120 there obviously discussions going on 67 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,599 between John chart and say the cabinet 68 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,319 secretary and no doubt the Prime 69 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:29,439 Minister and others are have got a view 70 00:03:27,319 --> 00:03:31,280 on these matters but I'm quite clear 71 00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:34,319 this is this is now this is now becoming 72 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,840 history this is 2003 this is a long time 73 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:38,640 ago and it's absurd that after so many 74 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,040 years we can't see this and I think the 75 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,319 British people are entitled to see this 76 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,760 report before the general election to 77 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:45,840 inform them as to how they're going to 78 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,319 vote and having it come out after the 79 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,239 election is an insult to the bertish 80 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:53,360 people it is an outrage that the media 81 00:03:50,239 --> 00:03:55,599 is by and large quiet about as I said in 82 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,280 the introduction you wrote a book about 83 00:03:55,599 --> 00:04:00,640 the strange death of Dr David Kelly you 84 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,599 still think it's just as strange of 85 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,640 course I do and leaving aside what 86 00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:07,120 people think happened to David Kelly 87 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,959 let's start with the basic facts the man 88 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:12,439 was F dead in mysterious circumstances 89 00:04:09,959 --> 00:04:15,439 an inquest was begun by the oxer coroner 90 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:17,840 the inquest was then pulled by the labor 91 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:19,680 government at the time by the by the 92 00:04:17,840 --> 00:04:22,000 politicians and there has been no 93 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,759 inquest into that man's death now I 94 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,479 challenge anyone to defend the situation 95 00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:27,639 where someone dies in mysterious 96 00:04:25,479 --> 00:04:29,080 circumstances and there is no inquest 97 00:04:27,639 --> 00:04:30,639 into that man's death how can that 98 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,160 possibly be right and whatever people 99 00:04:30,639 --> 00:04:34,120 think happened to him even if they think 100 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,440 it was suicide it cannot be right there 101 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,160 should be no inquest why aren't the 102 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,720 journalists in this country theym 103 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:43,520 demanding an inquest the man in question 104 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,960 was at the center of the Iraq Story I 105 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:51,000 mean you talked about uh concert a storm 106 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:54,160 David Kelly was in the eye of the storm 107 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,880 uh and then days later he's found dead 108 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,800 in the most mysterious circumstances 109 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,360 what was most mysterious about them well 110 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,280 if you listen to the doctors and medical 111 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,800 experts who look at this very carefully 112 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:06,320 uh they believe it's impossible for him 113 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,759 to have died in in the way that was 114 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:12,800 described uh medically impossible uh one 115 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:14,840 person only died in 2003 from severing 116 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,240 the alter Al artery which is a tiny 117 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:20,440 artery Matic thickness in your wrist um 118 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,600 presuming that one person was David 119 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,520 Kelly but beyond that of course a Hutton 120 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,759 inquiry which was it's a joke frankly 121 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,800 was set up to look into the 122 00:05:26,759 --> 00:05:31,000 circumstances of course spent no time at 123 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,800 all on that and inp did spend time on 124 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,759 David Kelly's death here was 125 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,240 contradictory key Witnesses were not 126 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:39,080 called uh including the people who in 127 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,919 charge the inquiry for the police his 128 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,520 best friend my pedison and so on were 129 00:05:40,919 --> 00:05:45,080 not called instead the whole Hutton 130 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,960 inquiry was diverted onto the BBC and 131 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,039 whether or not the BBC had behaved 132 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,720 properly it's an outrage that the whole 133 00:05:49,039 --> 00:05:52,400 hon inquiry was not about the government 134 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,199 and about the death of one individual 135 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,080 who did his best for his country but 136 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:57,840 about the BBC and the media the rest of 137 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,560 media went alone with it now that you're 138 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,520 back on the back benches you going to 139 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,880 pick this story up again well it's still 140 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,199 there George and you know I'll wait for 141 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,599 I think the next stage will have to be 142 00:06:05,199 --> 00:06:09,039 there's so much evidence out there that 143 00:06:06,599 --> 00:06:10,479 that questions are the official version 144 00:06:09,039 --> 00:06:12,280 but no one's interested very much in the 145 00:06:10,479 --> 00:06:13,440 mainstream media in that so we'll have 146 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,520 to wait I think for one of the key 147 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,120 players to come forward before the media 148 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,599 then rediscovers the story I can't spell 149 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,000 my whole life on on one story there's 150 00:06:18,599 --> 00:06:21,479 other things to do in Parliament you say 151 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,919 the mainstream media but when we 152 00:06:21,479 --> 00:06:26,199 announce you're coming on the Sputnik 153 00:06:23,919 --> 00:06:28,199 everybody immediately responded 154 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:31,440 regarding the strange death of Dr David 155 00:06:28,199 --> 00:06:33,000 Kell well the public L of course are are 156 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,720 are concerned as I am about the official 157 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,560 version they they know the there's 158 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,479 something not quite right about that but 159 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,720 that's not you know the the the powers 160 00:06:38,479 --> 00:06:42,479 that be want to shut this down not all 161 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,120 MPS of course I mean MPS will talk to me 162 00:06:42,479 --> 00:06:46,080 privately and say well actually we got 163 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,560 our concerns too senior MPS but they 164 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,919 don't want to say anything publicly it's 165 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,199 too difficult to rock the boat so many 166 00:06:49,919 --> 00:06:52,759 politicians and you know this George 167 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:55,240 because you're one of them um there's a 168 00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:57,120 circle of of of activity and there's a 169 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,840 safe segment people operate in the safe 170 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,960 segment and if you want to go outside 171 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:02,960 that safe segment as I do and you do uh 172 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,199 then people don't like it now how does 173 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,280 it feel to be back on the back benches 174 00:07:05,199 --> 00:07:08,919 how did it feel to be in government with 175 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,759 the Tories well I've spent my life 176 00:07:08,919 --> 00:07:12,800 fighting Tories so uh it was a curious 177 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:14,280 marriage but you know the funny thing 178 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,479 about the Tories is because they are 179 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,319 business orientated they could see as a 180 00:07:16,479 --> 00:07:19,800 contract you they want to buy some 181 00:07:18,319 --> 00:07:21,120 double glazing we are selling double 182 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,599 glazing and they want to get double 183 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,199 glazing have to get it from us and they 184 00:07:22,599 --> 00:07:25,319 sign a contract and by and large because 185 00:07:24,199 --> 00:07:27,160 of business people they stick to the 186 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:28,960 contract so it kind of worked in a 187 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,759 fashion I know I would say that in many 188 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,960 ways work quite well at the Department 189 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:33,759 of Transport where I was for three and a 190 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,599 half years he was quite Collegiate there 191 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:37,199 weren't many policy differences we both 192 00:07:35,599 --> 00:07:39,080 wanted to expand the railways and so on 193 00:07:37,199 --> 00:07:39,960 so that was a very productive time I got 194 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,039 a lot done at the Department of 195 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,319 Transport I'm very proud of my stuff 196 00:07:42,039 --> 00:07:45,800 Department of Transport but then you 197 00:07:43,319 --> 00:07:48,879 went into the belly of the Beast 198 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:52,240 the you you were working under Theresa 199 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:54,319 May herself a putative Prime ministerial 200 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,599 uh candidate how' you go on with her 201 00:07:54,319 --> 00:07:56,879 well I got on better than the media 202 00:07:55,599 --> 00:07:58,680 would have you believe as a matter of 203 00:07:56,879 --> 00:08:01,000 fact I mean on the personal level I got 204 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,680 nothing against the um the the 205 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,960 difficulty was that she didn't seem to 206 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,879 want to accept we had a coalition 207 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,919 government she thought it was a 208 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:08,360 conservative government with a Liv D to 209 00:08:06,919 --> 00:08:09,879 be tolerated that's not my view on 210 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,199 matters a bit like the thick of it do 211 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:14,639 you remember that in the thick of it the 212 00:08:12,199 --> 00:08:16,639 how the liberal Democrat or one assumes 213 00:08:14,639 --> 00:08:19,120 they were the liberal Democrat Coalition 214 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:21,199 partner were treated uh frankly with 215 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,440 contempt by the ministers and the 216 00:08:21,199 --> 00:08:24,680 special advisers to the ministers well I 217 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,319 think it vared across government the 218 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,639 department for transport was very good 219 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:28,919 and I had good relations with my Tory 220 00:08:27,639 --> 00:08:31,599 colleagues and he with the Tory special 221 00:08:28,919 --> 00:08:33,120 advisor Us in the in the DFT and the 222 00:08:31,599 --> 00:08:35,159 relations with Theresa were on a 223 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,839 personal level quite amicable she sent 224 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:39,440 me a Christmas card last week um but you 225 00:08:37,839 --> 00:08:40,519 know it she sends out to all the guys 226 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,320 well maybe she does she sent me a 227 00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:44,959 Christmas card last oh well there you 228 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:47,680 are I'll wipe I'll wipe that from my my 229 00:08:44,959 --> 00:08:50,200 argument no seriously uh we're now in 230 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:52,600 the runup to the election but not so 231 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:55,480 close that we can't talk about it I mean 232 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,519 frankly in your constituency a 233 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,240 progressive person would be mad to vote 234 00:08:57,519 --> 00:09:02,680 against you even though there's a labor 235 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:05,560 candidate there's even a green candidate 236 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:08,040 any Progressive person should say well 237 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:10,839 he might be a liberal Democrat but he's 238 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,120 our kind of liberal Democrat he's a real 239 00:09:10,839 --> 00:09:15,560 uh liberal Democrat but not all of your 240 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,399 colleagues are in the same boat 241 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:20,560 according to the opinion polls you may 242 00:09:17,399 --> 00:09:24,040 be about to lose half your MPS is there 243 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:26,200 a kind of gallows humor amongst your 244 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,320 ranks about that no I mean I think we we 245 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,200 we know we're facing a difficult 246 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,839 election but that doesn't mean there 247 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,120 Gallows humor or indeed a pessimism 248 00:09:30,839 --> 00:09:33,839 about it I mean I think we're well dug 249 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,000 in in many of our seats and I think 250 00:09:33,839 --> 00:09:36,959 we'll do much better than the Press 251 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,800 expect although the poll indicated that 252 00:09:36,959 --> 00:09:41,079 you're going to do worse in the seats 253 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,480 you hold than you are in the National I 254 00:09:41,079 --> 00:09:44,120 don't believe that GE you I know the 255 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,519 inside where we're going I don't believe 256 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,760 that and the reality is that you know 257 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:49,160 every single Parliament I've been 258 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,000 involved in and before I was in 259 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,640 Parliament the Press love to write 260 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,360 stories about how the lids are finished 261 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,720 they' written it so many times you know 262 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,800 that you get a repeat fee for these 263 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,800 stories right between every every 264 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,720 election you know when not finished 265 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,720 liberalism doesn't die liberalism is an 266 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,519 idea that cannot die uh because it's 267 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,760 there and the British people so it will 268 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:09,240 carry on and uh we will do we'll do 269 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,760 better than people expect as we always 270 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,040 do but you got to bear in mind that the 271 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,880 people who are saying that we're 272 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,000 finished who are they they're off on the 273 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,600 rightwing Press who can't bear the fact 274 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,480 that we're in we're in there stopping 275 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,360 the Tories doing what they want to do or 276 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,920 they the far leftwing press who want 277 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,200 labor to have a clear R you know the 278 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,480 Press by and large want to return to a 279 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,720 two- party system they don't want the 280 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,200 greens don't want live dams don't want 281 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,440 SNP they want lab versus Tory that's 282 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,240 what they want well the British people 283 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,519 don't want that because over the years 284 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,120 um you've seen the the combination of 285 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:40,480 the the percentage of the vote for labor 286 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:43,519 and Tory declined from I think 98% in 19 287 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:46,040 it was 98% when I was born down to down 288 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:47,639 to what 60% or something now you know 289 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,120 these people are fed up with two party 290 00:10:47,639 --> 00:10:52,240 50 something per at and the Press better 291 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,800 to catch up with the public yes but Nick 292 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:59,320 PL made a fateful decision uh your party 293 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:02,440 did to climb into the ministerial Monte 294 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:06,480 goes and keep David Cameron in power the 295 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:09,680 buling dun boy the tonian Posh boy and a 296 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:12,200 multi-millionaire government uh The 297 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:14,279 Pledge on student fees and so on is 298 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,959 going to hurt you very badly well look 299 00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:18,000 at a few things about that first of all 300 00:11:15,959 --> 00:11:20,680 there's no military monteo I refuse to 301 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,200 have a ministerial car uh and had a big 302 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:24,040 argument with' already accepted that 303 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,720 you're a different I got a h up his bike 304 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:29,040 just for the record a bicycle um but 305 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,680 look I mean if we had not g into 306 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,519 arithmetic at the last election said you 307 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:34,200 can have a tour minority government or 308 00:11:32,519 --> 00:11:35,720 you can have a t libd Coalition that's 309 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,680 what the arithmetic said there wasn't 310 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,200 there wasn't another option on the table 311 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,600 and we thought if we let the Tes have a 312 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,800 minority government they'll run to the 313 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,320 country in six months time and get a 314 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,480 majority that's what happens in these 315 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,480 situations happened in 74 with Harold 316 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,560 Wilson uh and if we go in with the co if 317 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,839 we don't go with the Coalition people 318 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:52,519 would say you wanted the balance a power 319 00:11:50,839 --> 00:11:54,680 for 50 years you've been given it you're 320 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:55,760 doing nothing with it so we had a very 321 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,959 difficult choice we made the right 322 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,560 choice I think both for the country and 323 00:11:57,959 --> 00:12:01,120 for us it was a difficult choice and it 324 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,880 wasn't an easy choice to make out the 325 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,560 two options but in terms of the 326 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,440 manifesto we've delivered 75% of our 327 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:08,120 Manifesto in government uh I'm very 328 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,040 pleased about that okay we didn't 329 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,680 deliver tuation fees and that was a a 330 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,079 very painful thing for me and for number 331 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,800 of our colleagues but you know the 332 00:12:14,079 --> 00:12:17,639 reality was when it came to negotiations 333 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,560 with the Tories and labor after the next 334 00:12:17,639 --> 00:12:21,880 election both Tories and labor said we 335 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,040 want tuition fees up both the other 336 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,880 parties are going to increase tuition 337 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:28,199 fees so there's nobody to negotiate with 338 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,920 that on that issue if it happens again I 339 00:12:28,199 --> 00:12:31,839 hope you make a difference Choice Norman 340 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,440 Baker thanks very much thanks for being 341 00:12:31,839 --> 00:12:36,920 on the interview coming up after the 342 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:39,320 break cash strap Britain has found a 343 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:42,199 hidden stash last week at least we must 344 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,320 assume so because permanent new military 345 00:12:42,199 --> 00:12:47,519 bases in the Persian Gulf don't come 346 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,519 cheap we'll be right 347 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:55,959 back welcome back Britain withdrew east 348 00:12:53,839 --> 00:12:58,360 of Suz back in 349 00:12:55,959 --> 00:13:00,720 1971 but just when you thought our 350 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,760 economy couldn't get much worse we've 351 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,760 pulled a rabbit out of the hat and 352 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,079 announced we are to build a new 353 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:10,360 permanent military base in the Persian 354 00:13:07,079 --> 00:13:12,839 Gulf and not just anywhere in Bahrain 355 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,160 Bahrain is in the grip of a revolution 356 00:13:12,839 --> 00:13:17,120 it has an absolute Royal dictatorship 357 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,240 which murders and tortures democracy 358 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,800 campaigners and then incarcerates 359 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:24,240 doctors who treat those campaigners and 360 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:27,560 if that weren't bad enough Bahrain is 361 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,959 also occupied by invitation by its even 362 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:32,600 more brutal dictatorship of a neighbor 363 00:13:29,959 --> 00:13:34,920 Saudi Arabia on board the Sputnik with 364 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,160 us to discuss what all this means is 365 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,560 Charles schuri a man who knows what he's 366 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:43,160 talking about a former Army officer 367 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:48,600 intelligence man and security expert 368 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:50,600 Charles what has bahin got that Britain 369 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,600 would want to build a military base 370 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,000 there bahin has many things of course 371 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,320 that Britain has got one of which is 372 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:59,000 money for sure and the other is uh 373 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,320 geographical location which is uh at 374 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,880 least a justification from a 375 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,440 geopolitical perspective it's um of 376 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,399 course something is the clue in the word 377 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,440 Persian Gulf the clue is in the word 378 00:14:06,399 --> 00:14:11,959 Persian Gulf um in terms of uh for 379 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:14,839 example it's importance with respect to 380 00:14:11,959 --> 00:14:16,959 oil imports with respect to uh the 381 00:14:14,839 --> 00:14:18,680 movement of free trade and shipping and 382 00:14:16,959 --> 00:14:21,000 of course also uh it's an opportunity 383 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,360 for Britain to show uh that it's a very 384 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,959 close Ally of course of the United 385 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,240 States who has a very significant 386 00:14:23,959 --> 00:14:30,279 presence already in Bahrain their fifth 387 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:33,199 Fleet is already birth there exactly uh 388 00:14:30,279 --> 00:14:36,759 I I can see that but I thought that we 389 00:14:33,199 --> 00:14:39,720 were shivering through austerity winter 390 00:14:36,759 --> 00:14:41,920 I thought that Britain was Cash strapped 391 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,560 a permanent military base doesn't sound 392 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,680 like a cheap thing to me having said 393 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,399 that I think first of all Bahrain is 394 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,320 paying for this which um at least 395 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:51,519 they're paying for the capital costs so 396 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,639 they've put they're going to invest 397 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:56,120 something like 15 million pounds 2324 398 00:14:53,639 --> 00:14:58,440 million in this Britain will then um 399 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,160 take the running costs of this but um 400 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,600 that I think tells us a lot in itself as 401 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,079 to why a country like bahin would want 402 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,639 to actually give a base to a foreign 403 00:15:05,079 --> 00:15:09,040 power um and it's also I think uh a 404 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:12,040 point that this is actually quite I 405 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,000 think more of a symbolic gesture or of 406 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,959 symbolic importance than it is of any 407 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,800 practical effect I say this for a number 408 00:15:15,959 --> 00:15:19,720 of reasons first of all because 15 409 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,279 million pounds which is being paid by 410 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,240 byrain even though we're going to pay 411 00:15:21,279 --> 00:15:26,040 the operating costs into the future um 412 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,720 it's a lot of money to you and me but in 413 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,399 terms of uh the big picture of Defense 414 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,360 spending defense equipment defense 415 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:36,279 infrastructure 50 million pounds does 416 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:37,959 not buy you an awful lot um secondly um 417 00:15:36,279 --> 00:15:39,920 we've already got use of the American 418 00:15:37,959 --> 00:15:41,199 facilities there no doubt we make some 419 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,000 sort of contribution or perhaps as a 420 00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:45,839 quid pro quo they can use our facilities 421 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,920 as we know that happens um and it's also 422 00:15:45,839 --> 00:15:48,319 the case that of course even though we 423 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,880 haven't been based permanently in the 424 00:15:48,319 --> 00:15:53,959 Persian Gulf since the early 70s at 425 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,720 least um we have had quite a a near 426 00:15:53,959 --> 00:15:57,800 permanent Naval presence in terms of 427 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,199 ships patrolling and things like this 428 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,839 and so consequently this this is really 429 00:15:59,199 --> 00:16:02,480 very um I think symbolic and it's very 430 00:16:00,839 --> 00:16:04,040 symbolically important I think both for 431 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,959 Britain and particularly of course for 432 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,720 Bahrain I think this is an attempt if 433 00:16:05,959 --> 00:16:09,800 you like or an opportunity seized by the 434 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,199 bahini uh ruling family because it is a 435 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,519 ruling family a dictatorship by any 436 00:16:11,199 --> 00:16:16,120 other the name it is um an attempt I 437 00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:18,920 think to tie other European powers into 438 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:21,160 Bahrain it's an attempt to say um if 439 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,959 America were at some future point to 440 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,440 start signaling its withdrawal from the 441 00:16:22,959 --> 00:16:26,959 Persian Gulf I mean let's face it there 442 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:29,040 are a number of uh factors here first of 443 00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:30,959 all there are uh increasingly 444 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,959 uh let's not put too strong a word on it 445 00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:35,079 but good relations uh or better 446 00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:36,360 relations with Iran uh from America 447 00:16:35,079 --> 00:16:39,160 there's a resolution hopefully of the 448 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,839 nuclear issue uh there is perhaps um 449 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,079 cooperation in the future against Isis 450 00:16:40,839 --> 00:16:45,519 and others so of course this is a matter 451 00:16:43,079 --> 00:16:47,839 of some fear for people like the Saudi 452 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:50,920 and the bahini ruling families secondly 453 00:16:47,839 --> 00:16:53,000 American dependence on um Arabian oil is 454 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,639 declining declining sharply yeah thirdly 455 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,639 and lastly I would say that America is 456 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:58,160 increasingly focusing elsewhere in the 457 00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:00,440 Pacific where it sees it main rival 458 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,560 pivot to Asia exactly because of what it 459 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,319 sees as the China threat or rivalry 460 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,439 whatever wants to see and therefore I 461 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,400 think bin is perhaps slightly I wouldn't 462 00:17:06,439 --> 00:17:09,480 put it any stronger than this but 463 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,679 slightly perhaps apprehensive that the 464 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,880 more uh this happens the more direction 465 00:17:11,679 --> 00:17:15,959 of travel is America is away from this 466 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,160 area the more it should go back to its 467 00:17:15,959 --> 00:17:19,919 old friends Britain of course was the 468 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,280 gave the protectorate for many many 469 00:17:19,919 --> 00:17:24,480 years uh was the colonial Master if you 470 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,880 like um and therefore it doesn't hurt 471 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,000 them at all to have Britain uh if you 472 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,640 like with its footprint back in and from 473 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,000 one I said it was symbolically important 474 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,919 but there's a practical issue here as 475 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,039 well which I don't think's been 476 00:17:32,919 --> 00:17:37,120 mentioned elsewhere as far as I've seen 477 00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:39,080 if we have a naval base there a Naval 478 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:41,679 facility I think base is probably too 479 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,160 strong a word for it um at the moment 480 00:17:41,679 --> 00:17:46,440 with 15 million pounds but if we have a 481 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,760 Naval facility there would that possibly 482 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,440 in the future were there to be disorder 483 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,160 chaos Revolution as some might call it 484 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,640 uh protest would that give Britain an 485 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,559 opportunity to deploy troops there to 486 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,840 protect the base Nally but of course 487 00:17:57,559 --> 00:18:00,799 that would also be very useful and 488 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,159 helpful for uh the ruling family well 489 00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:05,159 you're not old enough to remember but 490 00:18:02,159 --> 00:18:07,440 the last time we were in that region 491 00:18:05,159 --> 00:18:09,679 roaming around the streets quelling 492 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:13,760 disorder it was in the crater District 493 00:18:09,679 --> 00:18:17,280 in Aiden uh with the bag pipes skirling 494 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:20,120 and Kilts swaying as we shot down the 495 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:23,000 natives that symbolically was seen as 496 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:25,760 the last Act of the British Empire it 497 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,120 was the moment when Harold Wilson 498 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,960 declared we were withdrawing east of su 499 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:32,960 and indeed it's this is why again as a 500 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,200 symbol it's almost a reversal of that 501 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,679 position no matter that it's not in 502 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,679 financial terms a vast sum of money it 503 00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:41,120 does symbolically tie us in there 504 00:18:39,679 --> 00:18:42,640 because it means then that we're not 505 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,799 just piggybacking on the American 506 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,440 facilities that we do now it means now 507 00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:50,600 that uh that we can send a signal that 508 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,440 says we are for square with the Bahrain 509 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,440 with Bahrain as the foreign secretary 510 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,240 said the other day we are standing 511 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,480 shoulder-to-shoulder with Bahrain what 512 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,720 he really meant of course was that we're 513 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,200 standing shoulder to shoulder with the 514 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,640 Bahraini ruling family because as we 515 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,679 know of course uh if uh this was the 516 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,919 same in Syria let's say the Russian 517 00:19:05,679 --> 00:19:09,919 naval base in s in Syria this has been 518 00:19:07,919 --> 00:19:11,760 roundly criticized by labor and 519 00:19:09,919 --> 00:19:14,440 conservative liberal Democrat all 520 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,080 politicians in the US and the UK and yet 521 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,760 there we are now doing exactly the same 522 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,400 thing in a position which in a situation 523 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,200 which although there's no full-blown 524 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,559 Civil War in Bahrain at the moment 525 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,080 there's still nonetheless an active 526 00:19:24,559 --> 00:19:30,080 protest group there is um uh a uh some 527 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,080 might say an Insurgency a rebel 528 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,520 organization people who actually say 529 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,960 that they want democracy which is 530 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,320 actually very different from much of the 531 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:40,880 Syrian situation and yet we are saying 532 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,520 we will do exactly what Russia does in 533 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,280 um Syria and something that we have 534 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,000 criticized Russia for for having that 535 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,760 naval base in Syria it sends a very 536 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,880 clear message of two things I think 537 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,280 first of all that we are tying ourselves 538 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:56,000 to uh these um dictatorships such as bin 539 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,799 Saudi Arabia Qatar and others uh but 540 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,360 also I think it sends a very clear 541 00:19:57,799 --> 00:20:02,320 message on fortunately that Britain at 542 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:04,720 least in respect of its foreign policy 543 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,240 with regards to this area uh shows quite 544 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,240 a degree of hypocrisy hypocrisy 545 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,840 us it's been heard before for sure this 546 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,120 week in Channel 4 they add this program 547 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,039 on dismantling camb Bastian don't you 548 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,240 think it's a bit ironic as the as 549 00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:21,720 Britain is dismantling its largest 550 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,720 overseas base since the second world war 551 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,039 and now opening this new Naval Base is 552 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,760 that maybe the arithmetic uh that you 553 00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:31,840 that you raised in the beginning it's a 554 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,440 interesting point although um the um uh 555 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,880 that was a very interesting documentary 556 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,120 which luckily I've seen since you've 557 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:40,039 raised it um that was something over a 558 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,840 billion pounds that cost us and again 559 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:44,400 that brings into relief what I've just 560 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:47,000 said about this 15 million as a as a 561 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,679 almost like a symbol only for um our 562 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,679 relationship with Bahrain very 563 00:20:48,679 --> 00:20:52,000 interesting in that program I I would 564 00:20:50,679 --> 00:20:54,159 urge people to try and watch that 565 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,880 program on Channel 4 um if I'm allowed 566 00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:59,320 to put other TV broadcasters as an 567 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,280 advertisement almost because what comes 568 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,360 through clearly again and again perhaps 569 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,840 unintentionally I found on that program 570 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:07,960 was when they are translating what the 571 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,760 senior Afghan generals are saying and 572 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,240 this is unbeknown to the British 573 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,919 generals or Colonels who are sitting 574 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,400 there the sheer disdain that so many of 575 00:21:13,919 --> 00:21:19,039 the Afghan senior officers seem to have 576 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,799 for their British counterparts um that 577 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:22,679 came through very uh clearly and 578 00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:23,880 probably quite unintentionally Charles 579 00:21:22,679 --> 00:21:26,600 as we've got you here and you're an 580 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:30,960 expert in the intelligence field rectile 581 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:34,200 infusions PR es ice baths standing for 582 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:37,080 66 hours people dying on the torture 583 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:40,159 tables all of that turns out to have 584 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:42,320 been the practice of our closest Ally 585 00:21:40,159 --> 00:21:44,840 the United States and its intelligence 586 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,480 Services the CIA according to the report 587 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,799 this week did any of that shock or 588 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,240 surprise you uh very sadly no it didn't 589 00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:52,880 surprise me at all and the reason I say 590 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,440 that is because it's largely been in the 591 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,880 public domain for some time well over a 592 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,919 decade I mean it's 2004 was the earliest 593 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,600 that I could find that IID mentioned 594 00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:04,159 these practices going on particularly in 595 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:07,279 respect of the UK's role in suspected 596 00:22:04,159 --> 00:22:08,880 rendition going back to 2004 is when I I 597 00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:10,520 think first mentioned it so if I know 598 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,919 about it and I'm not even involved on 599 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,520 the inside of these uh issues anymore uh 600 00:22:12,919 --> 00:22:16,240 and the guardian and other newspapers 601 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,279 were reporting or at least referring to 602 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,880 it it's been um if you like common 603 00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:22,720 knowledge and that's why I gave a 604 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,240 slightly rice SM when David Cameron the 605 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,640 on the day of the report came out and 606 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,000 said something like that the uh United 607 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,360 States risked losing its moral Authority 608 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,000 through its use of torture and yet 609 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:34,360 throughout the whole time that that 610 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,919 torture was taking place uh politicians 611 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:39,840 of all shades in the United Kingdom um 612 00:22:36,919 --> 00:22:41,120 spoke only really of shared values uh 613 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,360 and it turns out that those shared 614 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:46,559 values as was widely suspected were of 615 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:47,799 torture and so on and and also let's not 616 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:50,120 forget there is a long history of 617 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:52,559 American and sadly British involvement 618 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:54,720 in torture if only uh not only with 619 00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:56,520 their own Security Forces to varying 620 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,279 degrees um and I wouldn't want to 621 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,559 overemphasize that but also of course in 622 00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:03,120 their um complicity with the torture by 623 00:23:01,559 --> 00:23:05,039 other regimes around the world for 624 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:07,640 example if we look at countries such as 625 00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:09,799 Saudi Arabia uh and so on torture is 626 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,960 widely practiced in these places and so 627 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:14,120 um not much is said by the United 628 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,480 Kingdom of the United States uh about 629 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,440 these these practices and so therefore 630 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,840 perhaps it's not surprising that then 631 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,480 they uh use these practices themselves 632 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,960 but of course the fact that the CIA have 633 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,760 been blamed now for lying and 634 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,200 undoubtedly they did lie to their 635 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,279 oversight it it raises two issues for me 636 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,360 it's first of all does it suggest 637 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:33,880 therefore that what the CIA have told uh 638 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,240 their oversight committees and so on in 639 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,640 respect of their other activities for 640 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,679 example in Syria in Libya were also lies 641 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,080 and maybe this should all be Revisited 642 00:23:39,679 --> 00:23:44,120 and secondly the fact that you've got 643 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:47,120 the CIA being blamed for lying it's 644 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:48,880 almost the same as happened in the uh UK 645 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:52,000 with respect to the reasons for going to 646 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:54,480 war in 2003 in Iraq that it really does 647 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,360 give an excuse for uh the politicians 648 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,559 the journalists all of whom who didn't 649 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:59,600 question this torture when it was 650 00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:01,440 happening to say oh but we were deceived 651 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,279 the CIA lied to us what are we supposed 652 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,159 to do not withstanding that really for 653 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:07,600 over a decade it's been common knowledge 654 00:24:05,159 --> 00:24:10,120 they're all shocked shocked in the way 655 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,159 that the police captain in Casablanca 656 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:15,120 was when discovering there was gambling 657 00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:18,159 going on at Rick's Cafe thank you very 658 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,159 much indeed Charles 659 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,600 shrid and now it's your turn to tell us 660 00:24:21,679 --> 00:24:26,039 what you think through the portals of 661 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,000 social media what's rling Guri well it 662 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,760 seems that for the public Norman Baker 663 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,919 is syn synonym to the strange death of 664 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,600 Dr David Kelly I got the impression he 665 00:24:32,919 --> 00:24:37,360 doesn't quite like that uh I think he's 666 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,399 a bit worried that he'll be pigeon 667 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:42,120 holded in that way but nonetheless he 668 00:24:39,399 --> 00:24:43,640 was the man who had the courage to say 669 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,520 what he thought and write a book about 670 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,880 it and people respect him for that so 671 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,600 that's why Muhammad F Mia says I can 672 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,600 openly say without an iota of fear that 673 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,600 Dr David Kelly was murdered by British 674 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,559 and American licenses I also say this 675 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,240 you can kill a man but you can't kill 676 00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:02,640 the truth on the torture report it's 677 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:06,039 unbelievable but believable as you know 678 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:09,320 Dick Cheney commented um that it is full 679 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:13,000 of crap yeah he said he' do it all again 680 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:15,279 unbelievable but believable LBC responds 681 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,320 one of them is full of and it isn't the 682 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:21,240 torture report so it must be dick an L 683 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,640 Tweeter says the crap is that any other 684 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,840 regime would be at the IC for crimes 685 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,159 against humanity no chance of that for 686 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,880 Blair and Bush and that's all that we've 687 00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:31,640 got time for this which alas means 688 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,240 that's the end of the show you can keep 689 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,399 in touch with us on Twitter at rtor 690 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,760 Sputnik and on Facebook you can like us 691 00:25:36,399 --> 00:25:40,600 on Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye 692 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,640 from me gatri and from me George 693 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,640 Galloway it's been 694 00:25:45,740 --> 00:25:53,859 [Music] 695 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,120 marvelous